C.W. Hopper said...
"So when we meet as strangers, even when friends look like strangers, it is good to remember that we need each other greatly you and I, more than much of the time we dare to imagine, more than most of the time we dare to admit." [Buechner]

The sad thing that happens when you feel you no longer need God is that you also begin to feel that you no longer need people, or worse, that people no longer need you. Like Tom Hanks’ character in the movie, Castaway, a life of survival - merely trying to stay alive - is not living at all. To be alone, dependant only upon yourself, relying only upon your thoughts, believing you have nothing to contribute, is a painful existence. It was only when Hanks’ character constructed a crude raft, and set sail on the high seas with little hope of success, that he began to live again. It was a huge risk, one that almost certainly would end in death, yet it was worth it for he longed for adventure, and more importantly, knew that adventure is so much sweeter when shared with others. Who is God? God is us … and we are God!
However heretical that may sound, I believe it. God created this world to experience all the thoughts, feelings and emotions that were within God. When we choose to reject God, we reject others. God is not some powerful, bearded figure on a throne that offers love and freedom, yet banishes those who reject his offer to a life of eternal torture. God is Talon and Lisa and Mike and Becky and … me. Even the Bible calls us the body of Christ. Yes, we do need each other you and I (Buechner’s words), but we don’t need the traditional institution of church. In most cases, church is not community, for real community is made of different kids of people, with different attitudes, understandings, and even beliefs. Real community includes tolerance, and there is very little of that found in church. As I look forward to 2009, I am still seeking god/spirituality, but not through some organized religion. I believe what I’m looking for is not that far away, and it’s not in some after-life, and it doesn’t include some spiritual “Door # 3” where you can lose the prize you just won and get an eternity in hell instead. God is in every person, in all of nature, in our conscience and sub-conscious mind – God is all around us – we just have to realize it.

The Paradox

An exerpt from "The Hungering Dark" by Frederick Buechner
The paradox is that part of what binds us closest together as human beings and makes it true that no man is an island is the knowledge that in another way every man is an island.
Because to know this is to know that not only deep in you is there a self that longs above all to be known and accepted, but that there is also such a self in me, in everyone else the world over.
So when we meet as strangers, when even friends look like strangers, it is good to remember that we need each other greatly you and I, more than much of the time we dare to imagine, more than most of the time we dare to admit.

"church" Leadership

"Ministers today can't see this mysterious or theoretical body of Christ, and therefore do not feel compelled to find their place as a member (body part) of that mysterious living organism that exists without walls, neatly defined parameters, or organizational structure. They do feel compelled to be the head of something, and that something is often called "a ministry" or "a church", and it's usually an organization, rather than an organism. Rather than finding their place in the body, with macroscopic vision, seeking the health and well-being of the whole, they become extremely microscopic in their vision. They can only see, and therefore are supremely concerned with, their ministry, their church, or their organization. They are often too focused on building their ministry to really build the body of Christ. "

"I believe that Jesus can lead His people without a religious hierarchy... I believe the place to start is to begin to look rather warily upon those who love to have the preeminence, and especially upon the system that forces that preeminence upon men who would not choose it for themselves, had they but known that what we've seen as church leadership for centuries is not God's will after all."

from: Mark Frost

from Keith:
heres my thoughts after reading this....
"but I’m learning that knowing God’s will is not the point- but to Trust Him." thats interesting i was just thinking today, that its seems like God's main desire for his children is to learn to trust him more and more. not nessecarily to have power or understanding.
another thought: i agree with Jacobsen’s crusade against the church "institution" and "the religious veneer". but thats not a new idea to me. i've always been repeled but those things. so i've heard u talking about these concepts and they just aren't revolutionary for me. but i am curious.. what have you found is good for you? in regards to replacing institutional church? just hanging out with Christians?

Mom said...
Hi, Finally figured out how to type into this thing. I'm techniquely challenged. Anyway, I am thrilled to have a place to pour out my thoughts and receive some wisdom and confirmation from others going through this. ("This" meaning the unsettling lost feeling of not 'going to church' anymore.) After 35 years of involvment in church activities, I'm completely at peace with God, but have a sense of loss concerning the fellowship and sharing aspect of the body. I cried as I read Talon's blog and Claude's response. This is just what I need. Love, Mom

Here are a couple email responses to my entry "where do we go from here":

From Brad Rasmussen:
I am sitting here on my couch, having been engaged by all of you at one point or another over the last few days, and feeling prone to respond!
Talon, as always, you have a great way of challenging the heart and writing words that cause me to ponder Christ. Thanks for that. I look forward to connecting through your blog.
... I have experienced much loss over the last few years as the Lord has stripped me things a held onto for safety and identity. The organized church held so many things for me that defined my identity. As I became more and more unsatisfied, I also become less and less convinced of my identity. This cause a huge crash in my life. It seems as though some of that might relate to where you are?
Mike, after reading your response, I felt as though I was peeking into a world within a world. So many of us have experienced hurt attached to relationships as we travel through the cutting away of the flesh. I talk with so many that are on this journey to find Christ outside of the confines of organized church and many of us long for healing of wounds. I have started to think of those wounds in the light of the military term "friendly fire." Battle causes wounding to occur that at times comes from our own ranks. It hurts and causes pain just like that of an enemy weapon, but rarely is the intention the same. Even in the heat of battle when one side experiences internal conflict, in the end it becomes easier to see that we are all on the same side. I guess I think of scripture that says our truest battle is not against flesh, but against spiritual forces in dark places. Having talked, laughed, prayed, and sipped wine with you, I know your heart is to see God and His kingdom established. Thanks for pouring out your heart in words.
Also, Mike, you talked about being instructed by the Holy Spirit. Part of why I have responded to all of you is in response to some verses I read this morning. 1 John 2: 18 - 3: 3 speaks to the very idea you mentioned, Mike. It starts off imploring readers to carefully identify the antichrists that come our way. But then, reassures us that we have the voice of the Holy Spirit that teaches us in all truth. The key verses that hit me were 1 John 2: 26 & 27. We do have the Holy Spirit who lives within us and we do not need anyone else to teach us the truth. WOW, this is hope! You can read the verses to get a fuller picture, but I was amazed at the clarity of the passage.
To all of you, I am encouraged to share our journeys together. Much of the process for me has been un-education. The un-learning of man made ideas and the re-learning of spirit led ideas is where I am in this journey. I am not really sure where to go from here, so I will sign off for now. Talon, look for me on your blog from time to time.
Searching and finding (Not always knowing which one is which)...

(From my Dad)
....Reading W. Jacobson's blog that Talon sent was very interesting. I think I understand how some of you feel. Trying to explain to family and friends why I don't go to church anymore is very difficult to put into words. Very few understand what I am talking about. In most situations I don't want to bring dissension or negativity to those who are still part of the institutional church.
We tried for about a year to attend church and I couldn't deal with all the "stuff" that goes on. The names and places may be different, but the same shame/approval game still prevails. And I really don't want to judge it or even talk about it. Until my attitude changes, it's better if I just stay away. Our close friends understand this and we openly talk about our frustrations with the organized church programs. Someone asked us several months ago, "How do I respond to people we know who ask me why you and Becky don't come to church anymore?" At first I said I don't really care, but that wasn't fair, so I said, "Tell them we are on a pilgrimage to try and hear God first hand. We want to hear directly from the Holy Spirit and keep our minds clear from any preconceived ideas coming from man-made values.
That really is what I have been doing these past few years. Allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me in all truth. I see scriptures in shades of light I've never experienced before - a very refreshing wind that has overwhelmed me in His Love. Seeing His Love for me. Knowing He really likes me - just as I am. I've hopefully become less judgemental of people outside the church and more tolerant and accepting in my views of people and politics. (might even say 'liberal') My emphasis has lately been on Truth. Not good or bad, right or wrong, but the truth as Jesus would apply it - and I'm finding His Truth may be different than what I've been taught in church. (Becky's insert: His Truth is Bigger and encompasses so much more than I ever thought it could. He is not nearly as concerned with me being "good" as He is about me just loving. Loving Him, and people in general, regardless of their values or beliefs. Even going so far as to say - He loves
me the same whether I go to church or don't. I hope I'm becoming more of a blank slate, allowing Him to rewrite the script on my heart. I long to be free and freer still. Maybe this is just a season for us, but whatever it is, it's OK. We trust Him to lead us.)
Mike again: The book,"The Shack" has helped my perspective greatly and confirmed many things to me.

(from anonymous)
...Talon mentioned his spiritual journey. Like his family, ours hasn’t attended church since I stepped down from pastoring five years ago. For a long time I searched, as he did, for some kind of spiritual community. I’ve also read dozens of books on this subject, and gone through quite a theological renaissance. But I think I have finally grown tired of what I call “spiritual hide and seek”, and have basically put my search on hold – or maybe even given up. It makes for a very different kind of Xmas, since all the religious symbolism has lost much of its meaning to me. Like Bono,”I still haven’t found what I’m looking for.”

where do we go from here?

As I read Wayne Jacobsen’s blog this morning I came across this interesting exchange between an emailer and Wayne (see below). The emailer’s questions may sound familiar to you as well. Tired of “church” but not sure what to replace it with? If relationship is the key then how can walking away from the “group” be helpful?
I have often wanted to explain why Lisa and I don’t go to church anymore, but felt that it would come off as defensive and/or condemning so I have avoided it. It’s been over 5 years since we have been involved in the institutionalized church, and I believe I can safely say that God has used this time for our own personal deconstruction. Having received years of training to seek and know God’s will for my life, this has not been an easy time, but I’m learning that knowing God’s will is not the point- but to Trust Him. Answers/explanations are not always helpful. But knowing His Love is.
I, like the emailer, would agree that deconstructionism isn’t enough, but is sometimes necessary to begin afresh. Remember Jesus’ reference to destroying the temple and rebuilding it in 3 days, or a kernel of wheat must die and fall to the ground before new life can begin. Everyone’s journey is different, but the same. To quote from our friends the Rasmussen’s Christmas email “Often, our circumstances do not resemble the destination God has planned. Yet, just as Jesus went from a manger to the throne by way of the cross, we find ourselves on our own journey to His throne.” It is a beautiful picture if you know the end of the story, but if you come along somewhere in the middle it would not seem beautiful at all.
Isn’t this all of our stories- “a work in progress”, “under construction”, or is it under deconstruction?
I hope this finds each of you well, and that above all you live each day in the love of our Father.
Talon

From Wayne Jacobsen's Blog:

Is Deconstruction Enough?
I got this question in an email yesterday and felt it important enough to answer for others of you as well.
While I agree with many of the observations you and Mr. Young make with regards to institutional church (and I’m only a first generation Christian) - I am troubled by conclusions I’ve drawn (rightly or wrongly - and this may be where I could use some of your help) with regards to So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Anymore. I think that it is a no-brainer to say, “Let’s stop going to church. Let’s, rather, just be the church.” I’m with you on that - I’m tracking. I guess where I get hung up is that I believe that deconstructionism isn’t enough - it isn’t enough to say, “Sunday morning doesn’t work” - even if I agree with most of your points on this argument. To turn your own phrase, “Who wants to be on that side of the argument?”
Do you really want to be known as one of the guys who convinced people not to go to church on Sunday morning? Forgive me if this sounds cliche or preachy or even judgmental - but is that a conversation you want to have with Jesus - that a central contribution of your life was to deconstruct Sunday mornings?
What would you have us (your brothers and sisters) construct? It seems to me that it is too easy for any one of us to step away from Sunday morning because it isn’t working for all kinds of reasons. The truth is - we need your help to construct a different looking Sunday morning - to continue to ask good questions and critically examine what we are doing as a church - but to also build with us.

Here’s Wayne Jacobsen’s response:
I’m not sure you’ve drawn the right conclusions. My answer is not a simple deconstruction of Sunday congregations. In fact, I’m often in them to share the life of Jesus. I’m for deconstructing the religious veneer that we shroud our gatherings in. For some of us that means getting out altogether. For others it might mean being part of a process that recovers a more grace-filled tone, and a less passive environment in which the life of Jesus gets shared. I’m all for looking for ways to do that with what we already have.
As to those who find that environment no longer works for their journey, I don’t want to construct anything for them to pursue. I do think that’s Jesus’ job. “I will build my church…,” is how he put it. The reason church life grows stale is because we’re looking for institutional solutions, not relational ones. If we equip people to live loved of God and live as lovers of people, the church will spring up all around us. It probably won’t be contained in a specific meeting or building but will grow wild and free and bear fruit in the interconnection, collaboration, cooperation and submission of brothers and sisters who are being changed by Jesus. That can look like a hundred different things. But once I begin to describe some of those things, I know our tendency as humans to prefer replicating a model to following the Head! We love to construct things, not build up people. The New Testament points us to building up people in Christ and seeing what expression that takes. I don’t think it works the other way around.
So the process in or out of those systems may be deconstruction of religion and ritual, equipping the saints to live inside the love of the Father, facilitate connections that stimulate cooperation, collaboration and submission and people follow Jesus together, then see what HE builds out of that.
I am convinced that’s the process we are in. Having another model to shift to will only shift the problem into a new shell. We’ve got 2000 years of church history to say that can’t work. And I’m happy to help on all sides of that process as Jesus gives me grace. But I don’t think anyone who knows me will think the central contribution of my life to deconstruct Sunday mornings. The central passion of my life is to help people live loved of the Father and love on his behalf with increasing freedom. To the degree that our institutions do that, I’m thrilled. To the degree they don’t, change is in order.
What kind of change? That’s up to the Head himself.
I’m only a bit player in this unfolding drama